Curse

S!carius · Jun 08, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

I have decided to create a mesmer but I'm not sure where to make him (Cantha or Tyria). Which location would be better for a relatively new mesmer?

Francis Demeules · Jun 08, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

I can say its your choice.

I know in Cantha, you start with Shatter Hex at the begining thought, which you havent for awhile in Prophecies. If you want to rush to lvl 20, Cantha. If not, Prophecies.

You can learn the profession in Tyria thought without rushing.

Cymboric Treewalker · Jun 08, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Well... this is two fold:

I personally prefer Tyria for creation if I want to enjoy my stay and learn a profession. If I am looking to get level 20 super fast and know the skills I want or want to play with Canthan skills then I create a character in Cantha.

Basically Tyria is better at teaching you the skills and Cantha is better for power leveling.

Pick Me · Jun 08, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Sadly, it depends on what type of 2nd profession you want as well. If you want to be a ritualist or assassin, then you are pretty much stuck with Cantha's base character (unless you don't care when you get that 2nd profession).

But as both Francis Demeules and Cymboric Treewalker said, if you want to achieve level 20 fast, Factions is the way to go. If you want to learn how a Mesmer is played and take your time, then go with Prophecies.

To quote Francis Demeules, "its your choice."

Have fun in the decision you make.

S!carius · Jun 08, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Thanks alot for the help. I have made a mesmer before so I have basic understanding of how the class works so I think I'll create a character in Cantha.

Montolioo · Jun 08, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Hey i just made a Canthan mesmer and am enjoying it emensly.

But i really want to learn the mesmer class and not just rush it through the game. What should i do? Play slowly through Cantha learning the class? Or switch over to Tyria ASAP.

THx for any help.

Francis Demeules · Jun 08, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

You can always return to Tyria when you arrive at Keineng Center if you want to keep your Cathan Mesmer, gain skills there (still have some skills quests after Lion Arch) and take your time there.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 08, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I like the appearance options of the Canthan mesmer better, but it really bites having to buy so many of your skills to be effective. You get *tons* of skills for free in Tyria, coming up through the quests, plus learn how to play better. If you don't want to be /Rt or /A, i'd definitely go Tyrian and choose /N or /Mo for sub. /Mo is more self sufficient, but there are some wicked spike and degen builds with /N.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 08, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I really dislike conjure *anything* spammers; so Tyria is the way to go imo ^_^
Create in factions->tyria is cool though. Remember; no conjure spamming past yak's bend!

Montolioo · Jun 09, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

I decided to recreate my mesmer in tyria since he wasnt that far, and i really want to learn this class. THanks for the advice guys!

Francis Demeules · Jun 09, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

I really dislike conjure *anything* spammers; so Tyria is the way to go imo ^_^
Create in factions->tyria is cool though. Remember; no conjure spamming past yak's bend!

You really have a look of someone who got bad exp with Phantasm Spammers in PuGs. Am I wrong?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 09, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Lets just say we took 3 mesmers other than myself; of those three mesmers...all of them were not 2 skills shy of this build
Energy Tap
Energy Drain
Ether Feast
Ether Lord
Arcane Theivory
Arcane Mimicory
Conjure Phantasm
Illusion of Weakness

I personally thought Dunham could do a better job; at least they yell at the monk less often due to the fact that they died while tanking 3 mobs. Sure they have 1 1/2 self heals, but that will not stop you from dying standing under 2 meteor showers. I certaintly wouldn't want any mesmer to be associated with them.

But lets look at my perspective on the skill itself.

I find that people who rely on conjure phantasm as damage are generally not all that far from above. Its not that good of a spell to begin with. Honestly; it will deal 150 damage to a target IF they live that long. First off; they shouldn't. Second, if there was a target that "was" to live that long, empathy would do more in the time frame mentioned. So now that we have completely ruled out conjure phantasm as "significant" dps; it can be nothing more than a spam skill-which IoR does more efficiently (although it did not exist at the time).

Illusion hexes ignore armor, but at the cost of lasting to their full duration to ignore that armor. You are trading a armor ignoring spell, for a degen cap, and the promise that a. the target does not somehow remove the degen (dying, hex removal, or otherwise), and b. that the damage is delt over time.

B. is the problem we are {most} concerned with. We {people in general} find it effective to kill targets quickly; this has a two fold benefit. First it stops them from killing you (which is good) by crippling their offensive line (or defensive if its a monk but you get the point nonetheless). This in tern prevents additional healing from your monks, etc. etc. and is good relief for your team. The second benefit, is that as they have less men, you have more. This increases the ratio of "what is killing what" or net dps in the favor of your group. Of course this is very similar to the first point, and placement of dps is crucial (why was just explained).

In order to "bypass" this "called target" as many of you know it; you have to efficiently kill, or practically disable another target of higher rank, or importance. Thus interrupters are born. Interrupting and disabling the target is more powerful or useful, than the power lost in concentrated damage due to the net dps ratio mentioned. Because of them interrupting the target they are assigned (usally a monk) the ratio shifts more so in their favor than if they were to coordinate damage with the rest of the group.

Simply put; conjure phantasm can do neither of these things in high lvl areas. It cannot dramatically shift net dps in your favor, nor can it take down the called target with quick reletivity. Clumb. is fine, block one gain one, can be used on called target; great. Ineptitude is fine, block one gain one, can be used on called target AND disable front line; wonderful. Conjure phantasm, cannot be used on called target to great efficeincy, cannot dramatically shift dps=not so great. IoR can take down the called target with more efficeincy due to the +damage, heck so can Wastrel's Worry for that matter.

In this perspective degen is "fundamentally flawed" if "mass" spreading of degen was possible through some sort of aoe means similar to suffering it would again be plausible. If empathy and SS get a nerf, it might be usable. Yet, on these terms, I have yet to see conjure phantasm of any use other than a spam skill, one to use while Clumb+Inept are recharging. Of course IoR slams phantam's only hope of being into the ground as being a "replacement" spam skill...which of course is redundant having a backup spam skill for a spam skill, thus I hope it doesn't see much use.

Maybe conjure nightmare will get an aoe boost; who knows?

-edit-
The reason I say stop at yaks is because this is the point when dps on called target begins to lag and become ineffective

LightningHell · Jun 09, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Phantasm isn't that bad. It's nice for NPC killing. :P

And some tiny pressure.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 09, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

I can buy solo npc killing if you give me 10% off ^_^;;...and throw in a few slow spells =p

Shadow monks arn't pressured; but players can be. I can see its uses in pvp; just not in pve.

Lady Lozza · Jun 09, 2006, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Meh, conjure = cover hex. Easy to see when it comes off, easy to put back on. Spirit shackles, fragility, and mind wrack can also be used as covers but there are upsides and downsides to all of these. Honestly it depends on what you are running. I always take a cover hex, normally it is conjure.

Sab · Jun 09, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

You're looking at Conjure Phantasm in isolation, disregarding all the contexts in which it is useful. It is like saying Power Return is worthless because it returns energy to your target. Sure, if you're basing an entire build around that one skill, you would end up with a pretty crap build. But that's not the case here, you're saying that Conjure Phantasm is crap, full stop, which I don't agree with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Honestly; it will deal 150 damage to a target IF they live that long. First off; they shouldn't.

So you can kill an entire group of half a dozen level 24s in under 15 seconds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Second, if there was a target that "was" to live that long, empathy would do more in the time frame mentioned.

I don't see how you can accurately compare Conjure Phantasm and Empathy in terms of DPS. CP provides unconditional damage, Empathy is dependent on your target attacking (casters wand only between spells = less damage). CP is twice as spammable as Empathy.

If you're going to be comparing CP to anything, let it be IoR or some other degen skill, and if you want to compare Empathy to anything, try Insidious Parasite or SS or some other punish-on-activation skill.

And, another point here, why not use both Empathy and CP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

So now that we have completely ruled out conjure phantasm as "significant" dps; it can be nothing more than a spam skill-which IoR does more efficiently (although it did not exist at the time).

Stack CP with IoR, don't use CP in isolation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

B. is the problem we are {most} concerned with. We {people in general} find it effective to kill targets quickly; this has a two fold benefit. First it stops them from killing you (which is good) by crippling their offensive line (or defensive if its a monk but you get the point nonetheless). This in tern prevents additional healing from your monks, etc. etc. and is good relief for your team. The second benefit, is that as they have less men, you have more. This increases the ratio of "what is killing what" or net dps in the favor of your group. Of course this is very similar to the first point, and placement of dps is crucial (why was just explained).

Yes, spiking things dead is nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

In order to "bypass" this "called target" as many of you know it; you have to efficiently kill, or practically disable another target of higher rank, or importance. Thus interrupters are born. Interrupting and disabling the target is more powerful or useful, than the power lost in concentrated damage due to the net dps ratio mentioned. Because of them interrupting the target they are assigned (usally a monk) the ratio shifts more so in their favor than if they were to coordinate damage with the rest of the group.

Simply put; conjure phantasm can do neither of these things in high lvl areas. It cannot dramatically shift net dps in your favor, nor can it take down the called target with quick reletivity. Clumb. is fine, block one gain one, can be used on called target; great. Ineptitude is fine, block one gain one, can be used on called target AND disable front line; wonderful. Conjure phantasm, cannot be used on called target to great efficeincy, cannot dramatically shift dps=not so great. IoR can take down the called target with more efficeincy due to the +damage, heck so can Wastrel's Worry for that matter.

Degen isn't for spiking. It's for softening up off-targets while the rest of your team spikes. With that said, you can fit both spiking power and degen in the same build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

In this perspective degen is "fundamentally flawed" if "mass" spreading of degen was possible through some sort of aoe means similar to suffering it would again be plausible. If empathy and SS get a nerf, it might be usable. Yet, on these terms, I have yet to see conjure phantasm of any use other than a spam skill, one to use while Clumb+Inept are recharging. Of course IoR slams phantam's only hope of being into the ground as being a "replacement" spam skill...which of course is redundant having a backup spam skill for a spam skill, thus I hope it doesn't see much use.

Use both IoR and CP. Nothing's forcing you to use just one (except perhaps for the lack of Factions).

Avarre · Jun 09, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

I've been in the deep using degen MoR ior+cp. I've been there with dom too. Degen wins for spammability and multi-target nature.

Francis Demeules · Jun 09, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Degen is really good against every professions. In Domination line however, each skills are specific against some professions and another one for others. In Faction, you generally fight most all these professions in one mobs if we compare Prophecies.

wilson · Jun 09, 2006, 12:43 PM // 12:43

i would chose tyria to start a new charakter, for several reaons.
first, i always liked and still do like pre-searing, one of the most beautiful areas in game, and always worth an exploration, even if you knoe the map by heart

the monastry and the island its on is nice to see once, but i did not enjoy as much as pre searing
tyria has a "softer" approach to the game, as has already been said before. you can learn your new profession, and develop your skills at a slower pace. in cantha you go from "student" to mighty hero in just a couple of hours
another big difference is character progression. In tyria it takes a while before you hit lvl 20. in cantha it goes extremely fast, the entire campaign being laid out for level 20 characters
a big difference imho make the mobs you are about to fight. Tyria offers less choices, its basically always the same types of foes thrown against you. In cantha theres more mixed groups
i also liked the skill trainer updates over in tyria. the skills you already unlocked (- the elite ones of course) are available at every skill trainer, which is pretty nice and lets you have a bigger choice regarding skills and how you would like to develop your character.
and of course, theres the world you play through. it's just my opinion, but tyria is much nicer to explore than cantha will ever be. you go from burned and arid land to the mountains, into the jungle, through a desert to end on an erupting volcano

cantha just offers less, imho, 3 factions with 3 different homelands, thats about it.

if you want everything very fast, go for cantha, and travel to lion's arch to buy the skills you need, if you already unlocked em. if you prefer to take your time, id chose tyria to start a new character.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 09, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuxA

So you can kill an entire group of half a dozen level 24s in under 15 seconds?

Short version:yes.
Long version: hell yes.